Leading with Courage, Vulnerability, and Authenticity | Leadership Stories | Women Leadership | Female Founders
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Today’s guest, Natalie Dumond, is someone who knows that leadership isn’t just about strategy and results—it’s about courage, vulnerability, and authenticity. Natalie is a leadership coach, speaker, and certified Dare to Lead facilitator. Her journey began as an HR professional, where she developed her own unique feedback framework, which led to her contribution to Brené Brown’s bestselling book, Dare to Lead—flip to page 205 to read Natalie’s words of wisdom.
In our conversation, Natalie shared her wisdom on the keys to great communication, active and present listening, the art of asking better questions, and even why silence can be your most powerful tool. We also explored how to quiet what she calls the “itty bitty shitty committee,” the role of vulnerability in leadership, and the importance of emotional awareness.
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Natalie
That's the empowering, you you know, moment for so many people. It's like, wait a second. I've been telling myself that I'm not smart enough or I'm not capable enough or I'm not deserving enough. What if I actually start to change that narrative and buy something different? And so that's when you start to see people get the light bulb and you start to see them shift and stand in a different identity of who they believe they are. Amy
My guest today, Natalie Dumond, is someone who knows that leadership isn't just about strategy and results. It's about courage, vulnerability, and authenticity. Natalie is a leadership coach, speaker, and certified Dare to Lead facilitator. Her journey began as an HR professional, where she developed her own unique feedback framework, which led to her contribution to Brene Brown's best selling book, Dare to Lead. Flip to page two zero five to read Natalie's words of wisdom. In our conversation, Natalie shares her wisdom on the keys to great communication, active and present listening, and the art of asking better questions, and even why silence can be your most powerful tool. We also explore how to acquire what she calls the itty bitty shitty committee, and the role of vulnerability in leadership, and the importance of emotional awareness. Please enjoy Natalie Dumont. Hi, Natalie. Welcome to the podcast. It's so great to see you again. Natalie
Thank you for having me. It's great to have this conversation with you. Amy
It is. And we met because you were on Greg and Whitney's podcast, the Unblock Yourself podcast. And I always love when we have cross guests because, you know, I kind of heard your story a bit, and I was intrigued, and I wanted to know more. Natalie
Aw, thank you. Yeah. It was a great time hanging out with, Greg and Whitney. I always have great conversations with them, so looking forward to this one. Amy
Yes. So you are a coach and a keynote speaker among other things, but what I'm really curious about are your thirty chickens. So I would love to know, what's that like and how do you care for them and what do you do with the eggs? Natalie
Yeah. It's it's a whole thing, but, yeah, we started it a couple years ago. I thought you know, my husband, Ryan, he was like, let's get some chickens. And so I thought maybe we're gonna get five. I thought we were gonna start with that number because that sounded logical. And then I think twenty five to thirty showed up. And and then what happens is you you just you're like, well, I like this breed or I like how this one looks or the the temperament on this, and so you just keep adding. So, yeah, we have a bunch of chickens, and then you want the different colored eggs. So we've got, you know, light brown, dark brown, blue eggs, green eggs, you know, the whole thing. So they they have quite the life here. They free range, and then they've got this beautiful, you know, chicken lodging area that they hang out in. They're great. Amy
That's amazing. It's it's not a normal pet scenario when I talk to people. Natalie
I know. Yeah. But it's it's nice to get your own, you know, eggs every morning. It's, that's great. So we do that, and now we do our own maple syrup on the property. Yeah. We've got Oh, nice. Farmers now. Amy
I think that's fantastic. It's so much fun to do things like that. So Natalie
great. It's good. Amy
So let's talk a little bit more about you and what you do. You coach people in various aspects of leadership. So what was your first experience in a leadership position, and how did that shape your perspective on what leadership really means? Natalie
Yeah. My I was always interested in leadership, I think, even as a kid, just being put into different roles. I was, you know, the oldest of my family too, and so it kind of always was in a leadership, oldest and only daughter. And, you know, but in the corporate space, my background was in human resources, and so I was able to get into leadership positions. There, you're you're always as HR too, you're invited into some some of the rooms and meetings, and you're hearing the conversation. So I was just interested to even just watch different leaders as they did what they did. And then as I stepped into a leadership role within the HR industry, that's kind of where I started to develop and started to see what was great and what was maybe not so great and, you know, so that kinda put me on the path. And my favorite part was when of leadership was when people came to just talk or be coached or understood, and that's kind of where I dug into the coaching industry and started to go down that path. Because I believe every leader should be a coach. They should be able to help, you know, see the potential in people and call that forward. That's the magic in in leadership. So once I I got a a knack for that, I I was all in. Amy
Well, I like that perspective of, you know, sometimes when we're starting out in our careers or if we're in just a smaller piece of a company, and if you do get invited into some of those rooms, you you do a lot of learning just by listening. Natalie
Yes. Absolutely. And observing and just taking it in and seeing what's really working and, for people's leadership style and and what isn't. And so, yeah, it's a good point. Amy
And so one of the areas of leadership you focus on is communications. And so I've always been curious about what makes a good communicator. And I wonder, is it some is it that there are universal aspects to communication that make people better at it than others, or does poor communication come from the fact that there are just so many different ways to communicate? Natalie
Okay. So good question. You know, when it comes to communication, I would say, you know, one of the areas is, obviously, we've heard listening. You're right? Good listening, active listening. Not always you know, a lot of us listen to respond, rather than just being able to take in what people are see or, you know, and receive it. But I think when it comes to communicating, what I find fascinating or what's a power or strength for individuals is coming down to their ability to ask questions and stay really present with somebody. Right? And so curiosity would be a skill set I would advocate for. And when I see curiosity done in an impactful way, asking powerful questions to understand the other person's perspective is very, very, very impactful and is a strength within communication. The other area we talk about sometimes is the power of silence is when you ask a question is allowing the other person to respond in a thoughtful way. A lot of us can get very uncomfortable with silence. So if I ask you a question and you don't respond immediately, it can send our internal dialogue into, like, a spiral. And then we try to, you know, fill in that space with a bunch of, like, you know, words or trying to get them to answer the way we want them to answer, we just really get nervous. So when I see somebody ask a powerful question and lean into their curiosity and then let it land and let the person process it, it's really interesting to see that in communication, and I and I appreciate when people do that. It's like a it's like a really skilled tennis match back and forth. Right? Amy
I agree. Yes. And you mentioned curiosity. So, you know, we all start off curious as children and sometimes we lose it. Can you reteach it or refined it? Natalie
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it really does help I don't know. Like, you can start young with teaching people and and not lose it, but it's, you know, I learned to get back in tune with it in my coaching career when I went and got skilled and and certified in coaching. They really taught us how to ask powerful yet simple questions like, you know, what's the real challenge for you behind this, or what does that look like for you, or what do you think is possible here, or what's driving that feeling for you. They taught us to ask questions that start with the word what in front of every because what has this powerful way of inviting someone into the space and opening up the space within curiosity. Like, I really would like to know what your perspective is. And so when we were getting trained in coaching, they asked us to remove the word why from our our questioning. Because why, like, why is that your perspective? Why is that the challenge for you? Why are you feeling that way? My tone didn't change, but the word why can make you feel like you have to defend. Interesting. Where what is that like for you? What do you think is possible? Or what is driving that feeling for you? Can in invite the person in more than why. And why can be a great question, but relearning that skill, asking what, then eventually how questions, and then bringing in why can be a really great way to, like, reskill yourself in curiosity. Amy
I like I like that. That's very interesting. So those are still pretty big questions, and you'd have to have a very sort of introspective answer, I think. And so when you start coaching people, do you have, like, warm up questions? Natalie
No. We don't take. Amy
That would be very intimidating. Natalie
Yeah. It could be. Yeah. I think I don't know. That's a really good point. I like I like being able to have real honest conversations, or it could be something like, what's what are you working on that's interesting right now? Or, you know, like, it it doesn't have to be like Right. You know, deeper questions, but it could be taking the same question that you would ask and seeing if you could start it with the word what. It's just a challenge. Right? It doesn't have to be crazy deep, but it can it doesn't have to be super surface level at the same time. Amy
Right. Yeah. No. I was just curious because to start that process, I think, even to raise your hand to say, I would like to engage coaching. You know, that can probably take, you know Yeah. Natalie
Like, a great question is, like, you know, like, think about your kids come home from school or, you know, maybe your spouse or a partner comes in, they're talking about something hard that they're having going on for them, you know, and be like, oh, interesting. What was that like for you? Right? Just even, like, what was that like or, you know, can get them talking more. And the more that people are talking, the more data that you can get on how to move forward. So Amy
I I don't know. I like that. I'm gonna have to try and change my whys to what, so I'm gonna give that a go for sure. Natalie
Oh, awesome. Yeah. No. It really it it's great. And you can see the environment between the two individuals change. Amy
So another theme you focus on is courage, which I find very interesting. So how do you define courage, and how can we actively build it as a skill? Natalie
Define courage. It's just, you know, courage is doing something basically that scares you or intimidates you or challenges you and and and knowing that it's still hard or fearful and you're able to move through it. The biggest way that we measure courage right now is coming through vulnerability. So the more vulnerable somebody is with their life, the more courageous they are, right, and vulnerability by definition is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure it's it's it's hard. Right? And and vulnerability, a lot of us are not wanting to do vulnerable acts because it feels too exposing and it's it's there's too much risk. There's too much uncertainty, and that just goes against some of our hardwiring. However, the more vulnerable we are, meaning, you know, we put our hand up in the meeting, we ask the hard questions, we have the hard conversations, we start the company, we ask the person out on a date that we, you know, we like. The more vulnerable you are, the more courageous you are with your life. And we look for courage all the time. We look for vulnerability in people because it's how we connect to other individuals. Right? The more vulnerable somebody is with their life, we can see ourselves in them. And we're hardwired to connect. We're hardwired to, you know, see ourselves with other people. And so the more courageous and more vulnerable you are, the more likely you are to build connection with other people. So being courageous in your life, being vulnerable in your life is pretty important. Amy
It is it is hard. I I think about so how do you encourage a leader that is more reserved? You know, they may still be a successful leader, but maybe that that's not something that they're comfortable with or used to doing. How do you, you know, incorporate that into their current leadership skill set? Mhmm. Natalie
Well, it depends on if they want connection, if they want connection in the workplace, or in their personal life. Because who you are probably like, there's probably a correlation between who you are as a leader with also who you are in your personal life. Right? So how are you connecting to everybody in in your everyday life and then in your personal life too? So it's a question of one, do you even want connection with other people? And if they're saying yes, then it's getting them comfortable with their own vulnerability first. Right? And so tapping into that and getting them comfortable with uncertainty, getting them comfortable with feeling exposed and, taking risks. So that's where you would start as one, seeing if they even want it, and then two, starting to work through them with a couple of those areas of uncertainty risk and emotional disclosure. Amy
And so if you're starting out, what would be some examples to start sort of taking more risk or showing more vulnerability? You know, maybe you're, you know, a VP and you wanna move to the c suite or something like that, and it's a skill set you recognize that you need to sort of expand on. How do you start? Natalie
Go get a coach, and go and do some of that inner work because, like, who you are is how you lead. Right? And so you can only meet people or lead people as far as you're, like, willing to meet yourself. Right? You can't take people where you're unwilling to go with yourself. So if you're unwilling to meet with your own emotions and be able to sit with them and process them, it's gonna be really difficult for you to do that with other people and build that type of connection. Right? And so, emotional literacy, emotional awareness, emotional accountability, and being able to process that within yourself will allow you in turn to be able to sit with other people when they do that and then build connection and that vulnerability and that courage and all of that. So, you know, probably coaching, like, the best leaders, the best athletes, the you know, they all have coaches. They all have therapists. They all process their stuff, and that's that's amazing. And then they're in turn able to go and do that with people that they're leading and be able to sit with them. Because it's true. You can only take people as far as you're willing to go with yourself. So if you're not willing to be vulnerable with yourself and take a look at yourself, it's gonna be really hard to do that with other people. Amy
It's true. And you you made a good point about how, you know, leaders good leaders have coaches. And, you know, we always say we can't do it alone, and I think that applies to this part of leadership. And sometimes we forget, but it applies to this piece of it as well. Natalie
Yeah. Yeah. So I you know, I would do that. Another easy ish way is, like, through storytelling. Think of some of the stories of how you got to your success and how you, you know, failed and came back up or, you know, when you had a hard conversation with a previous boss or client and, you know, what did you learn through it? People are looking for that vulnerability. They wanna see, you know, maybe that you didn't have all the answers and that you didn't figure it out every single time right off the hop. Like, we're all imperfect. And so we're looking for that authenticity of that. So if can you can you share that with people in an honest, authentic way? And you're sharing it in service to the other person. You're sharing it to help them grow, develop, pull their potential forward. You're not sharing it because they're your therapist. You're sharing it because you've already emotionally processed something. Amy
Yes. Natalie
And you know the lesson behind it, but you're able to share your vulnerability in it, the failure in it, the lesson in it in service to them to let them know, one, they're not alone and what they're going through. So storytelling can be a great way to signal your vulnerability with other people and build connection really fast. Amy
That's true in all scenarios you think about. When you're meeting someone new, whether at work or not, it's you wanna find common ground, and it is often through stories. Natalie
Yeah. And then you share something, and hopefully, they, you know, share something, and they just kind of building. And that's where trust gets built and all that great stuff. So there's so much rich goodness in Amy
It's and there's so many ways to work on it. I think that's, it's such a great piece to leadership that people maybe don't think about or don't know how to access possibly as well. Natalie
No. Because it feels so hard to do. And and we've been taught that vulnerability is weakness. It's something that you just don't do because people will judge you for it or attack you, and I I totally understand that. So not everyone has the right to your story. Mhmm. So thinking about it is, like, what what are the things that I do wanna share with people that I lead or social media or the people that are the closest to me? Like, there's different levels to it. Amy
And it and it can be hard too. I mean, as a woman, that's a very stereotypical thing in the workplace is the emotional piece and seeing the emotional pieces in negative. Natalie
Right. Like like, emotions, they're incredibly like, they're incredible. They're not factual Amy
all the time. Natalie
Yeah. That's something to also, like, check-in on. Yeah. But there there's something just to explore. There's nothing wrong with emotions. They're a data point for you to check-in on and then and and explore. But emotional, like, emotional attunement, emotional accountability, emotional awareness, like, these are all strengths. And so for both men and women Mhmm. Being able to cultivate them, pull them in, manage them in a respectful way, be able to witness them in other people. Like, this is a superpower, not a disadvantage. Amy
So Oh, I think it's great. I think it's great you call it out as a strength. More people need to hear that. I think it's very important. Natalie
Oh, it's a it's a superpower, man. If you can read the room Yeah. And know how to play to people's emotions and and know and your own too, you can be mature and accountable to your own. Like, that is the superpower. Amy
It is. And so so often we hear leaders are born and not made, and I I I personally believe leadership is a skill, like writing or playing a sport. So, you know, what's your take on that? Natalie
Yeah. It's a it's something you learn along the way. And so if if leaders become more attuned to their emotional well-being themselves, it can be an absolute, you know, strength when they walk into any boardroom or client meeting, whatever. Because they know how to read it in themselves. They know how to, like, breathe like, lean into it or tap out of it if they need to, and they know how to read the room in in other people. So, like, everybody we all have emotions. You're either just doing it consciously or unconsciously. Amy
That's very true. It's very true. And do you ever talk about leaders about evolving leadership style, about how it's okay to have lead led in one style and evolve to a different style as you grow and learn? Natalie
For sure. Like, there's always there's always growth. So leaders usually, the ones that I'm working with are coming to talk to me about their communication style. Empathy is a big one as well. How do you become more empathetic? So I work with leaders on that and accountability. So there's certain topics that I I lean into with their styles. Amy
And so a lot of these sort of skills and and things that leaders are looking for coaching on with you are very you know, they're personal and they're nuanced. And so how do you take all of that and translate it into a keynote? Because you do a lot of that as well or workshop. Natalie
Yeah. So what I do in keynotes and workshop is basically just, share what I have learned, you know, research that, you know, or, you know, people that inspire me like Brene Brown, Patrick Clincione, you know, Simon Sinek. Take some of that and distill it down, plus my background. And I just share, you know, real life stories of mine and also some of the research that's coming in and skills that they can take home. So take what works for you because everyone's at different levels with their empathy or their communication style or their where they're at with their vulnerability, or accountability. Everyone's at different spot, so take what works for you and then drop what doesn't. Take what really is resonating, whether it's a curiosity piece or whatever lands for you today, the itty bitty shitty committee, which we talked about on Greg and Whitney's podcast. Take what works for you and then drop what doesn't right now. That's That's what I try to do in my keynotes and my workshop is give a lot, see what resonates, and then coach people on the other side if they need it. Amy
Well, that was one of my favorite pieces of, Greg and Whitney's podcast is the itty bitty shitty committee. So tell us a little more about that. Natalie
Yes. So it's it's basically just the internal voice that we all have that when we're about to go do something courageous or vulnerable, that voice, the itty bitty shitty committee that lives in our head tries to stop us or warn us that we shouldn't be doing that. We shouldn't say the thing. We shouldn't go for it because if we do, we'll be judged or rejected, criticized. So it stops us. Your itty bitty shitty committee is trying to do two things. It's trying to keep you safe. Right? If you don't do that, nobody can say those things about you or criticize you, but it's also keeping you small. It's stopping you from going for the dream. So safe and small. And nobody wants to get to their end of the day, so they're like, I'm really glad I played it really small in life. Amy
No. They don't. Natalie
I didn't start the business. I didn't pass that person out on a date. Like, what Amy
It's not my daily goal when I get up in the morning. No. So have you trade have you trademarked that? Natalie
No. I haven't. Amy
Oh, come on. You should totally trademark it. It's awesome. Thanks. Natalie
It's like it's that voice that says you're not enough or who do you think you are? Like, you're not smart enough. You're not capable enough. You're not experienced enough. You're not pretty enough, thin enough. You're not something enough. And we get that conditioning through our life. You know, childhood is a big component of it. Teenage years, social, you know, communities. Somewhere culturally tells us you're not something enough based on these standards, and we we buy into it. And then it runs unconscious for us until we slow it down and go, wait a second. Is this a true statement? Is this a somewhat true statement, or is this a complete bullshit statement that I've just been holding on to because somebody else gave it to me to carry? Mhmm. And the the really interesting the deeper work that I do with a lot of my clients or my workshops is we talk about how do we unpack this and start to change the narrative because the really impactful thing is you get to control how you talk to yourself. That's the empowering, you you know, moment for so many people. It's like, wait a second. I've been telling myself that I'm not smart enough or I'm not capable enough or I'm not deserving enough. What if I actually start to change that narrative and buy something different? And so that's when you start to see people get the light bulb and you start to see them shift and stand in a different identity of who they believe they are. Amy
Yeah. I can see that. I mean, you're right. We're we're the only ones that can talk to ourselves, so we have the power to change it. Natalie
Exactly. Like, why are you buying something that you don't wanna believe in anymore? Amy
True. So true. Wow. Natalie
Or if you do believe in it so so some people that are like, yeah. This is a completely bullshit statement. Like, I used to tell myself that I wasn't smart. Amy
That Natalie
was something I carried for a long time. And then in my thirties, I was like, wait a second. And I looked at him. I was like, that's not true. That's not a true statement. Like, there are things that I'm not, you know, incredibly intelligent in. Like, I shouldn't be doing your taxes. Like, that's not my thing. I don't like it. It's not right? But it it with emotions, I can talk to you about your like, I'm intelligent in that particular area. So I changed the way that I was talking to myself about myself. And then when I work with people, they'll be like, no. This is a true statement. Like, I really do believe that this is true. And I was like, okay. Fair. Can we come at it instead of from a place of loathing and and disgust and hatred, or can we come at it from a place of love and acceptance that this is what it is? But it you can still change it and modify it or shift it. Right? Or transform it, transmute it. We can do all of these things. Can you come at it from a different place of of love? Like, you know, the example I give often is my body. For a long time, my body's gone up and down in size and, like, the way I look at it, and I would stand in front of the mirror and I would, like, hate on it and pick it apart. And I was like, wait a second. So it felt very true that I would feel like this is a true statement that I feel like I am overweight. But instead of coming at it from that, can I come at it from a place of love and respect that my body has been incredibly healthy and not given up on me and gets up every day and gives it? And I'm feeding it. You might can I come at it and feed it nutritional things and move it from a place of love rather than loathing and disrespect? Amy
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I I I think such an interesting way to flip the script on that and have just a different perspective even if it's something that is true. It doesn't have to be a cloud over your head. You can look at it from a different way Yeah. Even if it's true. Natalie
Yeah. If you feel like this is true, I feel this way. Okay. But can you come at it from a place of what has it taught you about yourself or what has it done for you? Like and just really dig in into that so you come at it from a place because things change easier and or I don't know. That may be easier, but I'd rather change things from a place of love than a place of loathing. Amy
Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, if we all did that, we'd probably be better off. Probably. I would think so. So in general, from all your experience and, you know, all the wisdom you've collected through all the things that you've done, what would you say are the most critical leadership skills people should be intentionally developing right now? Natalie
Their emotional awareness. Their the you know, that would be, you know, that yeah. Their emotional intelligence, the awareness, the accountability of, like, how they are choosing to show up in the room. So that would be a massive one. If I could sprinkle that over all leaders everywhere, that would be powerful. You know, curiosity was great. Accountability would be another, powerful skill. How are, you know, how are they showing up? Right? What's their part in it would be great. And then, yeah, vulnerability. Their own vulnerability. I think leaders that lead with that is pretty powerful. Amy
It's interesting. Do do you find that some leaders or people you work with or just in general that people don't see accountability as a leadership skill? Natalie
I've never run into that. Accountability seems to happen, like, they want other people to take accountability. Amy
Yes. That's what yeah. Because accountability is almost like, you know, vulnerability and and emotional IQ. It's like it's like a intangible thing. But, yeah, accountability is like you did this or I and it's always the other person. Natalie
It's always the other person, the other team, the client. Yeah. It's somebody else. And, like Amy
Yeah. Natalie
Yes. There are other factors to it. But I think, you know, the strongest leaders are, like, when they can sit back and go, wait. How did what was my part in this? Mhmm. Did I not communicate something effectively? You know, was my what was my tone like, or how did I show up? Like, if they can start asking those questions, it's really powerful. Amy
I think accountability is quite a nuanced skill, I would think. Natalie
Right. We want other people to do it, but it can feel really hard to do it in our own because it's a vulnerable act to take accountability. That's what makes it it's, like, to own our part and say, okay. I could have done something differently. Amy
Yeah. Natalie
It feels hard. There there's it's that's hard. But accountability builds connection and has a really powerful way to build relationships. Because think about this, like, when you were when you were maybe a kid or if you were a new employee or a junior employee and if you ever witnessed somebody take accountability for a mess up, like, if your parent ever came to you and said, hey. I'm really sorry for how I reacted there. I shouldn't have yelled like that. I'm sorry. Right? Like, that it builds connection. It builds trust with other people. If you have a leader that come came to you and said, hey. I'm sorry how that went with the client. I don't think I communicated as effective effectively as I could with that client. You know, like, it just it sends, like, a a different message, and you start to trust that authority figure in a different light because you're like, wow. They they own their part. Amy
Yeah. It's a powerful act to do that. And you're and I like that. Even even if their leader's taking accountability in a scenario, if you're right. If someone new or young just even witnesses it, that that extends the power of that act even further. Yeah. Okay. So, specifically, because we talked a little bit about this, but what are the biggest challenges facing female leaders today? Natalie
I think the two, I guess, that come to mind right now with what I'm seeing in the last little bit is likability. Likability is a great skill. Like, they're really it it you know, I I understand it. But trying to be, you know, not speaking up, not being you know, sharing your opinion because you're so worried about being liked or offending people or judging, and so that still seems to be present for a lot of of women. And then I have women that I also work with where there's this hustle culture to prove that they belong. So I got, you know, people that are trying to be too empathetic, too likable, too nice and polite and and not sharing their voice. And then the other side is, get out of my way. I'm gonna prove you wrong in this hustle culture. And even when they get to the table or they get to where they want, they still don't feel like they're wanted. And then they and then they're on this, like, constant loop of proving and hustling that they belong in the room at the table with the clients, with that title, whatever. Yeah. Those seem to be the two areas right now that I coach on. Amy
Those are both different but equally difficult challenges, I think. Natalie
Yeah. Yeah. And I understand where they both kinda are rooted in. They're rooted somewhere along the way. Right? We pick it up in at some point along our journey, and then we just buy into this narrative instead of stopping and slowing down and going, wait. Why am I acting and behaving this way? Why why are my thoughts driving the way that I'm feeling and therefore my behavior? And and so we just slow it down. And then once they understand it and unpack it, then they start to call in different behaviors of how would that look differently if I did put my hand up and say what I want to say? Did anybody lose it on me? Did anybody walk away? Did anyone you know? And it's like, no. Okay. So they're creating a new neural pathway that they're okay. Either, you know, maybe not being as likable as they are trying to be and then also not hustling as hard as they think they should have to. Amy
And it probably was never as catastrophic as we thought in our heads. Right? Natalie
No. People are looking for authenticity. They're looking for realness. They you're obviously there because, you know, you've got all these great skill sets, so just continue to bring those to light. And, like, know the other thing that's a big is you're not meant for everybody. So stop trying to be for everybody. Be yourself, and the right people will show up for you. Right? And so that that seems to be a big switch for a lot of the women I coach is, like, who are you? And sit in that, love that, and bring that to the table, and the right people will show up for you, and the wrong people will move aside. Amy
I like that. That is, I think that's relatable for everybody in all aspects of life. So that's very good advice. Thank you. One more picking brain question. What advice do you have for the next generation of leaders? Natalie
Yeah. Just, I guess it's like lean in lean into your authenticity. Lean into who you are. You know, figure that out. Honor honor your emotions. Explore your emotions. Dig into that. Become emotionally aware and accountable so that you know how to lead people from from that as long with the other skills, you know, of leadership. But it's that emotional awareness so that you can coach people. You can call people forward. You can have the hard conversations from a very grounded place because you had them with yourself. So, you know, yeah, the emotional piece. I think that's the piece that's been lost for a long time, and I think we're starting to call it back in. And so I would I'd love to see the next generation of leaders be very emotionally aware and accountable for how they show up, and they're able to hold that for other people that they're leading. Amy
And and if they learn it early on, they can skip all the itty bitty shitty committee stuff we've had to go through, and they can just just do it from the beginning. And how fabulous would that be? Natalie
Absolutely. Because you don't wanna be leading from your insecurities. Amy
No. Natalie
You wanna be leading from your grounded confidence. So the more that you dig into your own emotions and explore that, you come from a much more powerful place to do that for other people. Amy
All of this was so interesting and such great advice from a different perspective and a lot of on the emotional side and that there are things we can do and that it's okay that we're not perfect. And I think all of it was such great a great message for a lot of people to hear. So I appreciate you sharing all your stories and insights today. Natalie
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's it's so lovely to be able to just talk. So thanks, Amy. Amy
Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for everything. Voices of Leadership is part of the Bespoke Productions Hub network of independent podcasters. If you are interested in partnering with us as a sponsor or if you have a podcast of your own, please visit bespoke productions hub dot com for more information. This episode is hosted, produced, and edited by me, Amy Schluter. 
