Yeah. I have some people that go, I would never, and I'm like, book me again. Let's go. I'll be out here as much as you'd like. But, yeah, the morning live show, it's it's early. I have to be there at, like, seven AM. Yeah. So it's hard to feel put together for me at seven AM. But Right. Once you're there, it's it's great. They're so nice there, so it's enjoyable.

Oh, that's so fantastic. Well, let's talk a little bit about you and all the things that you do. So, let's just start with can you share a little bit about what inspired you to create PG counseling and the mission behind empowering clients to grow forward through life's challenges?

So PG counseling, was inspired in a few different ways. And so I've been working as a social worker since twenty ten, and I've worked at a lot of community agencies, and worked in different roles a lot focused on violence against women. And, for two reasons is, one, I wanted to open the group practice for me personally to have more freedom in my workload. Although I joke with people all the time as I work on my for myself, however, I've never worked harder in my life. But to be able to design a practice that really spoke to the importance of mental health and supporting people in the way that I felt very passionate about. And so the messaging on the website, the team that I've put together, it was really important for me to be able to offer a service in a way that I really felt was going to be supporting people. And, even from, again, the when you enter onto our website, we get a lot of good feedback of, I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt comfortable. And that's what I really wanted in creating this. The idea of mental health support, there's still a stigma around it. And we'll talk about that a little bit after, but the stigma around mental health and walking into a practice and sitting down with somebody, I think, can be very daunting. And so I wanted to create a space that felt very comfortable, very welcoming, and let people know that it's okay to come in and work on some of these pieces that maybe they've ignored or feel like they shouldn't have to get professional support around.

Well, I I agree. I mean, in doing research and learning a little bit more about you, the the website has such great information. It has information that you can just use and then leave, or it is welcoming because asking for help can be incredibly hard. And, you know, other places are sometimes just a phone number, and then what do you do? And do you have the courage to email or pick up the phone? And so it is a definitely a different take on it, which I think is really welcoming for people. But, why do you think that it's so hard for people to ask for help?

I think there's still an idea. I think there's two pieces. One is there's an idea that therapy is about paying somebody to just listen to you or paying somebody to be your friend or paying somebody to just vent to. And I think that what gets lost is that what we're providing is a treatment that, yes, is done through speaking, but what you're leaving with is the is the professional service ultimately. And how we're helping you to change, whether it be your belief system, how you're, interpreting information, how you communicate with others, that's really the piece that people are leaving with. And we still hear those jokes of, I'm not going to pay someone to be my friend. What are they going to do? Or this idea still that we're supposed to deal with these issues on our own. Well, my problems aren't as bad as they could be, so I'll just deal with it. Or this idea that, you know, it's it's something that I've tolerated, you know, let's say it's anxiety or depression that have become so normalized for people or stress and feeling like, what is somebody else gonna do about this for me? Right? And so there's, I think, a hesitance of seeing the true value in it, but we see time and time again that people come in and go, oh, yeah. I'll give it a try. And they stay with us for a very long time because they start to see the value, but it is that transition from, I should I think it's the I should be able to deal with this on my own to, oh, wait. Maybe I don't have to, and this service could actually be really helpful for me.

Well, and it's kind of tools like physiotherapy. If you use them, it's successful. And, you know, if you don't do the hand exercises, you're probably not gonna get better. Right?

Absolutely. And I think, again, it's that what piece we're giving you. Right? Is we're all very good still at identifying physical health issues, right, is this hurts, make it not hurt. And it's the same application I think in mental health is if this is challenging, let's make it less challenging. It doesn't mean it's gone. And I think sometimes you know, for things like trauma, people think, well, it's not like they can get rid of it. But how you think about it and how it impacts you absolutely can be changed and minimized in a way that you can live with it, but it doesn't take as much space for you.

And sort of on that, we we recognize our physical ailments and not necessarily our mental ones. How can people recognize when they might benefit from therapy even if it's not immediately obvious?

I think that's such a important question because we do have people sometimes say, I don't know if I need therapy. I'm very much of the belief that everybody can benefit from therapy. Just what it looks like can vary from person to person. And so I think one of the one of the things to keep in mind is is whatever it is that is a challenge disrupting your life in the sense of who you envision yourself to be or who you want to be, but you're having difficulty getting there because of x, y, and z. Whether it be a past trauma, a relationship concern, ongoing stress, finding balance, the the list goes on. But I think with any change that we make, we generally don't seek help until we get to a point where we feel like we can't go on how we are. And so there's always that breaking point for people. Right? If somebody has a a knee that really hurts, if it hurts a little bit, we go, oh, okay. But when it really starts to disrupt our lives is when we say, okay. I've got to book that doctor's appointment. Mental health though, some of the messaging that I really want to ensure that people understand is you don't have to wait for a breaking point to reach out for support. It mental health support can also be preventative of making sure that you're doing things that support your mental health in your life, and that may look like check-in sessions once a month. We have clients that come even once every three months and do that check-in, and then we book more often as things come up that are disruptive.

That prevent preventative piece is very interesting because I think sometimes our stereotype of therapy is every week, and it ongoing and never stops instead of sort of an ebb and flow of when you need it. Back to the physical sort of example is you would probably do the same. You would maintain an injury, and if it flares up, you would probably spend more time focusing on it.

Yes. Absolutely. And I think that's such an important piece that is not always considered is that our mental health good or bad or in between impacts us every single day because we, when we think about how large it is is really how we interpret information and circumstance and relationships and events is all related to ultimately our belief system, our experiences, our, you know, ability to manage these issues and gaining those tools and using them in a preventative way can be incredibly helpful.

Yeah. I I agree. It would be very much so. Now you mentioned a little bit about how you've assembled this team, and you have a unique approach to how the therapy is. So sort of on the business side, because you are both a successful therapist and an entrepreneur. So how do you balance your work on the therapy side with working on the business?

Admittedly, that has been a challenge for me from the perspective of there's just not enough time in the day. Mhmm. I I would say on a day to day basis, when I have clients come into the office, my business mind turns off and I'm in that moment with that client. There's such a unique relationship in therapy between clients and therapists where as therapists, we we so deeply value that relationship. Somebody is coming in with the assumption of complete safety, which of course we wanna provide, and talking to you about things that are very important to them, very heavy for them, very personal to them. And so I think that balance is challenging in that oftentimes the business stuff is dealt with on a when time frees up or early in the morning on my computer, later in the evening on my computer because the the therapy piece always is the priority. And so it's over time trying to balance how much time and dedication do I give to the business and how much time and dedication do I have for clients. And that's that balance that is still challenging to to get to, but, I really enjoy doing both. So it's it it is a bit of a challenge constantly of fitting it all in, but there's not necessarily one or the other that I'm willing to give up. So it's clients first and, trying to carve out time to grow that business and relying on other people and knowing that I don't have to do everything by myself, has been a learning curve, but really beneficial at the same time.

Yes. As an entrepreneur, relying on other people is a learning curve, I think, for everybody regardless of your industry. Yes. Absolutely. So you have two locations, so I'm assuming you have to rely on people then to manage that. How does that work?

Yes. So we have a a pretty big team of therapists now. We've got about seventeen, I believe, that are working with the practice. And they're really picked for both their expertise, but also their ability to work independently to a degree. And so I have a team that I just trust very deeply, which is very important, I think, for any business owner to make sure that those that are representing you to a degree are people who are able to support both the vision of the practice, the values that we put out as important in what we're offering, but also those who are very responsible and motivated and able to ensure that they're managing a caseload in a way that I'm not micromanaging because I simply don't have time for that. But, yeah, building a team, I think, that offers all of the support we need while also being prepared. It's it's private practice, so ultimately, there is a greater, a greater need to work independently and have responsibility. So my team that we've put together is fabulous at doing both and being able to trust them is highly, highly valuable, but also, having our wonderful clinic manager that just does all the things and is so incredibly organized and so wonderful that I can really rely on her. So I think developing your team as any kind of entrepreneur is critical and having people that share your vision for what it is you wanna offer.

Well, it sounds like you've created a very unique culture, and it seems to work and allow you to have these multiple locations, which not all businesses are able to do. So congratulations on that.

Thank you.

What are your long term goals for PT counseling?

That is an interesting question because it's so top of mind for me right now in figuring out what are the long term goals. I'm now in my forties. I have a very full family of four children. I have a husband who also works full time. So I'm not really sure. I think right now, I'm very happy with the point that we're at. But growing a little bit more into, things like online courses and supporting mental health in the workplace, Those are focuses of the future. Not everybody is comfortable coming into the office and having these conversations. So looking at other avenues to reach people around mental health support, again, whether it be an online course, potentially virtual groups, things like that that would assist people in different ways.

That's a great sort of future plan, I think, because you can reach more people. And then as we talked about, those that maybe aren't ready to email or walk into the office can sort of get some help on their own until they're ready, I guess, to take that next step.

Yeah. Absolutely. And you had touched on the website also being a source of information, which was something we redid our website in the last year, and that was something that was important to me of it not simply being, if you will, a sales pitch of here's why you should come in, but also a a real resource that people can go to even if they're never a client of ours, but they're able to access information and learn about therapy and maybe learn some tools without ever needing to connect with us. And I think that's that balance of, you know, going into private practice was a little bit challenging in that I've always worked at community agencies. And so I have this pull still to support those that maybe are are not able to access private practices, whether, you know, there is a cost to it, of course, or they don't have benefits. So making sure that we're still having a balance of being able to offer somewhat of services or at least resources to those that might not not be able to come in due to financial constraints or benefits, whatever the case may be.

Well and I and I'm curious because it seems like you've sort of figured this part out, but counseling seems a bit niche, some from my sort of experience. You know? You go here for the psych ed and here for family counseling and here for couples counseling. So what is the most challenging part about building a business in the therapy and counseling space? I would

say the most challenging really from, I guess, a business perspective is why should clients select our practice ultimately? So it I think it's balancing very much that that ethical piece of wanting clients to have really good support, which I know we're offering, but making sure that it's also sustainable for them. In and and I think that's I always say to people, it feels icky initially. That's the word I always use to you finish these very deep important conversations, and then you're asking somebody, how would you like to pay for this?

Yes.

And it that that I think for me was the biggest challenge of moving from community services to private practice. And so striking that balance ethically and making sure I feel like we are still supporting people in a way that matches my values as a therapist while also sustaining a practice and making sure that my therapists are compensated for the really great work that they're doing.

We tend to think of therapy as purely a matter of mental health, a conversation between a professional and a person in need. But therapy is also a business, and not just any business. It takes leadership and entrepreneurship to create a space where people feel safe enough to confront their deepest struggles. That's something Stephanie understands well. But as we talked about the business of therapy, I found myself wondering about the nuances of it because therapy isn't one size fits all. A child processing anxiety doesn't need the same conversation as a young adult facing uncertainty, and a woman in midlife confronting loss or reinvention needs something different altogether. So I asked Stephanie, how do you meet people where they are? How do you shape a conversation that fits not just the person, but the stage of life they're in? So let's talk a little bit more specifically about mental health and some different parts of mental health. So what unique challenges in mental health do you see at different stages of life, like teenagers, young adults, middle age, and how can these groups navigate these challenges effectively?

With teenagers these days, we are seeing a lot of anxiety that's happening. Very, very, very common. And, you know, we could have a whole hour long conversation just on the impacts of social media and, you know, instant gratification through social media and all of those pieces. But I think ultimately the the issues that we see come up in the practice are very in line with those life stages in terms of, teenagers maybe, there's identity pieces, they're sorting through relationships, friendships, stress of family, trying to find independence yet still being a child. Young adults, what we're seeing more often is, to be honest, hopelessness around the future

Yeah.

Which is a really sad thing.

Yeah.

The world we live in right now is there's a lot of challenges around looking at the future and, you know, what how do we align with how do we make this environment that we're in work with what our goals are? And so some of the sort of previous shoulds in terms of I will go to university, I will get a job, I will get married and buy a house and all of these things, this generation, I'd say, you know, through twenties and even into early thirties are really starting to question what are my goals and are they attainable? And sorting through some of those pieces around what is in your control and how can you meet some of these goals and not necessarily that we do financial coaching or anything, but, you know, how how can you envision your life even if it is a little bit different from maybe all of those milestones that we expect ourselves to hit at certain ages?

And when do those milestones sort of age out of acceptance? I mean, they're coming from an older generation, those milestones. Are they even you you mentioned attainable, but even valid as something you should do automatically.

Yes. And I think that's exactly something that we're having more and more conversations around of, is this a I want or is this a I should? And are there ways to envision your life or find acceptance around it being different and allowing that to be okay? And if those are really true I wants, obviously there's no judgment around that, but exploring, you know, where does some of these beliefs come from? And if they don't happen for you, which is is a reality for a lot of people, how can that be okay? And how can that path look different but still fulfill you in a way that feels really good?

That's gotta be really hard to do. I don't envy that age group with all the different pressures for sure.

Yes. Yeah. It's not easy. And and I'd say those in middle age, you know, there's there's and I guess I have put myself in that category now in my forties.

Asking for a friend about middle age challenges.

In in that age group, you know, it it varies. But I think, you know, one common theme that we see often is the you know, as opposed to saying a midlife crisis, because I, I hate that term because I think it, it minimizes where you are at mentally, but just that exploration of am I happy with what I've accomplished and questioning, you know, I still have lots of time to reach goals that maybe I haven't yet or, you know, reevaluating a marriage, a career. And I think really refocusing and zeroing in on who somebody is as an individual as opposed to all of the roles that we've consistently fulfilled. And and I'll say we see this with women very often of, you know, as children maybe get a little bit older and you're always a mom, but really rediscovering who am I and what do I want. But coming to a place of allowing that to be okay to put yourself first and to make decisions that serve you as long as they're not hurting others. And those I love having those conversations of that reflection on the past and it's an age group where there is a lot of ability to start to dig into the impacts of various events and even childhood and parental relationships and start to say, how is this going for you and where might we make adjustments along the way so that you can feel very fulfilled as an individual and not just a portion of a family.

Mhmm. Yes. What is your second act look like? Right?

Exactly. You get to still design this. You're not locked into something. If it's not working, let's explore it. And I think that's the beauty of how things have changed is people have multiple careers. People can change jobs, you know, at forty five years old and allowing those things to be okay rather than those defined narratives that, you know, we all have parents that got one job and stayed in it till retirement and that's how you did it. But instead to say, you know, this is your opportunity to, you know, what how have your values changed and is your life aligning with that?

I like the values piece because our our values can change and sometimes we forget that, I think.

Absolutely. And I think belief systems along with that, like, it's they're very intertwined. I love doing work with people of exploring their belief systems because we often ignore or don't acknowledge that we have belief systems that change how we collect information about the world and make sense of it.

Absolutely. Now it was time to get more specific. This was the hardest part of our conversation, the part that's gaining more awareness but is still widely misunderstood, intimate partner violence. Stephanie speaks about it from two perspectives, as a mental health professional who has helped countless people through it and as someone who has lived it. Her story is deeply personal, and she shares it with the generosity that demands we listen. But before I ask Stephanie about her experience, I had a question of my own, one that had been sitting with me for a while. What is gaslighting? It's a term we hear all the time, but do we really understand what it means? Are you being gaslit? Are you, perhaps without realizing, a gaslighter? Is that even a word? What I didn't expect was that my simple question about gaslighting would take us straight to the heart of intimate partner violence because gaslighting is a cousin of bullying that can manifest into a quieter, more insidious form of control. And once you see it for what it is, you start recognizing the patterns, the manipulation, and the slow erosion of trust in yourself. Okay. I have a question that I'm very curious about because I need some information and education. So gaslighting is a term that's become more widely recognized. However, admittedly, I don't quite understand what it means. So how would you define it, and why is it so damaging?

Oh, yes. And gaslighting absolutely has become a almost buzzword, if you will. Mhmm. Yes. But but I appreciate it because it's it is something that has been misunderstood for so long. So, ultimately, gaslighting is when somebody else is influencing your own better judgment and your gut instincts to a point that you are then questioning yourself. And it's so impactful in the way that it ultimately can lead mostly, it happens to women often in abusive relationships. But it can happen in the workplace. It can happen in friendships. But the the significant impact of it ultimately is that it causes an individual to lose trust in themselves and their own instincts.

So I thought it was more like being ignored, but it seems also it seems more like a cousin of bullying.

Absolutely. But it's done in a very covert sort of way that it leads somebody really to question themselves. And so, yeah, there's certainly when people are ignored, that's impactful, but that can be very obvious. Right? My needs aren't being met. Gaslighting is something that can take a long time to identify in any kind of relationship because it leads somebody to question themselves rather than the other person. And so the the example that I sometimes give to clients is, and and I believe it might be where that term comes from, but is, if there somebody had you think about those gas lights that used to exist. Right? And you would you could turn it down or you could turn it up. And the idea being that it's upright, somebody leaves a room, and while that person is gone, they turn it down slightly. The person comes back in and says, oh, it's dimmer in here. They go, no, it's not. No. I didn't touch it. It's fine. Oh. Okay. So they recognize it is dimmer and this could go on a few times. Oh, it's brighter in here. No. It's not. You're crazy. And in that moment, you question yourself because typically this is somebody who you trust or have some sort of with. You go, okay, so it must be me. And that's an example where, of course, that lighting necessarily doesn't impact somebody's well-being. But we see in relationships if somebody saying, you know, again, if it's, you know, you're so sensitive and you make such a big deal out of everything. It's invalidating how you're feeling in that moment and leads you to question, you're right. Maybe I'm the problem here and I need to change how I operate. And then, of course, needs aren't being met. And that's one example of many, but it is mentally speaking very confusing, especially when it's happening consistently.

Wow. I love that analogy. That really helps. Thank you. But, also, it seems like such a subtle form of manipulation.

That's exactly what it is. And it is so subtle again that it it can it's very crazy making. I think it's and I think women in particular often subject to it. And and when I talk about intimate partner violence, and relationships, we know statistically male to female violence is still the most prevalent. So I often speak to that and that's what we see in our practice. But it's, you know, again, it can happen in any kind of relationship, but I think women are often susceptible to it because we still have those underlying needs to be pleasing and liked and helpful and be seen in a certain way. Whereas men are still a little bit more comfortable or confident in saying, I think you're wrong and I'm right. And women go, well, I don't wanna make a big stink. So, yeah, maybe I'm wrong and I'll just accept that. But, again, it comes to a point where, especially in some of these relationships, it's a very dangerous manipulation that can be happening. Because, again, a woman it can be a man, of course, but a woman in these relationships will really lose all trust in their own instincts.

Wow. That's that's incredible. Thank you for talking about that. That makes it much clearer for me and hopefully for others as well. You mentioned intimate partner violence. Let's talk a little bit about that. If you're comfortable, can you share your personal story and how it shaped your perspective on the topic?

Sure. So when I was a teenager, actually, I started a relationship with somebody that went on for about six years. And it was very abusive and took me quite a long time to get to a place of understanding how abusive it was. And it was a time in my life when I was very vulnerable and I was learning about relationships. And the key that happened for me that I see in so many women is it's a very slow progression that you almost don't know how you got to the point where suddenly you're being hit and harmed and screamed at and told the most horrible things. And you think along the way, you know, we we still hear the stereotype from so many people of why wouldn't you just leave? Well, it didn't happen on our first date, if you will. And so the slow progression of isolation and gaslighting. And one key piece that happened to me was really, I thought I was making my own decisions, but in retrospect now as an, certainly as an adult and as a therapist, I look at how I was influenced that it really became about always choosing the path of least resistance. So if I wanted to do something independently that I knew wouldn't be liked, I would make the quote choice, if you will, to not participate in that, to not wear that. For instance, I remember getting really yelled at one day because I put on perfume. And who am I putting perfume on for? And therefore, I must be cheating. And maybe he should walk me to class. And I went, I'm just gonna make the choice not to wear perfume. It's not worth it. Right? And so it felt like my choice I recognized his behavior obviously was inappropriate, but I'll just choose not to wear perfume. It won't be an issue. Everything will be fine. And so I think understanding these pieces, the hitting is clear cut.

The black eye. Right? It it's not always about the black eye. I think is the perfume example really highlights that.

Exactly. And I was gonna say is it's funny you say that because I remember the first time I had a black eye from him and I looked in the mirror and I just went, you are such a stereotype. This is pathetic. Another time I had a big bruise on my arm and my sister said to me, what happened to your arm? And I without even thinking the words came out of I walked into the corner of a door and I went, oh, my God, you're such a stereotype. Like, those are crystal clear. I know he shouldn't hit me, but there is still this sense of false control of if I just do all the things I need to do to not make him angry, we can get back to that really good place. But in going through this relationship, I think it's really allowed me to understand the intricacies of how these relationships develop. And I'm very mindful when I'm sitting with a client and they're talking about their relationships. I'm very mindful of learning their story and how they've interpreted it. So I never push my beliefs. I'm still listening with curiosity and I don't disclose that I've had this experience too because we're not peers. But I I am able to pull from my experiences to understand them more and to have them understand the relationship more. And really the reality is is that most women have very similar stories. The biggest question that I get from women is, how did I miss all these red flags? Like, really help me see how I miss these red flags. And having women have empathy for their former versions of themselves can be such a powerful tool because today sitting here as a forty one year old woman who's now in a very healthy supportive relationship, I could look back at my eighteen year old self and go, what an idiot you were. Right? But that's not helpful. And I think that's what so many women do. And so I look at that eighteen year old version of myself and I think about all of the things that she was going through and how confused she was and how she didn't have all of the information. Even now, I'd like to support that other version of myself and say, it's okay. Yes. I wish I'd done things differently, but, you know, I won't say a silver lining because there's nothing good that came out of that relationship. But the ability to understand women and I think have them feel very heard and help them to sort through some some of these pieces has been incredibly valuable.

I'm so sorry that you went through that. I I can't I can't imagine, and I cannot relate. And I just you've come out the other side so beautifully. So good for you, I suppose. But, wow, it's just such an awful thing to have to go through.

Yeah. It really was, and I appreciate that. But it's yeah. I've I've tried to use it again for something that now I can help others with. I'm able to look at and say that was a time in my life and I wish it didn't happen, but I've learned from it. And, you know, I didn't have the intention to go into intimate partner violence. That wasn't a goal initially of mine, but I just I happened to end up at a practice initially in my placement that did a lot of this work. And I I didn't see myself as a part of it, but it was almost a really good healing experience at the same time is providing the support and learning more helped me to heal myself. And so I feel like everything's come together in a way that's been really beneficial. And now being able to help others because it is such a delicate topic that I think as therapists, there's such a great responsibility to approach something like this from a place of knowledge. And I say to all of my therapists is if you wanna work in intimate partner violence, fabulous, but you have to know your stuff because it's it is very, very delicate.

So I have a question then. Can you be in an intimate partner violence relationship and never be hit?

Absolutely.

And how what does that look like?

Yeah. When we talk about violence and, of course, we do think about physical violence most often, but, intimate partner violence is really any relationship that has really impactful power and control dynamics. And so, yeah, there are some, again, women often who will say, you know, it's not like I'm being hit, but violence can come in all kinds of forms. And so often what we see early on in a relationship is a lot of isolation, a lot of control pieces coming into play that, again, there's that gaslighting so they can be framed as positive. You know? You don't need to see your friends. I've planned a whole night for you. You don't have to see that. Cancel. Come on. Cancel. You go, yeah. Okay. I'm making the decision to cancel. And then women say, suddenly, I realized I haven't seen my friends in six months. Right? Things like accounting for your time, needing to overly explain yourself, And it becomes a woman's job typically of often keeping the peace. If I work very hard, I will not upset this person. But the the freedom of choice and routine and habits becomes really compromised through that. There can be certainly verbal violence. Right? Name calling, yelling, screaming. Financial abuse is certainly something that happens often where, you know, maybe a woman's encouraged to no longer work and they're completely dependent on a partner and maybe there is not access to money. These things can all be abusive if, again, that power and control dynamic is at play where ultimately one person has a lot of power and the other really has none. Generally, physical violence is the last thing to take place. All of these pieces lead up to it that hitting almost becomes expected or I hate to say this, but it it feels like for a lot of women, not even a big deal at that point, and it is. And I don't wanna minimize that, but they've become already such a shell of a person that it's it's not a surprise when that starts. But, of course, things can escalate to the point of real dangerous violence that we have to be mindful of.

But I understand what you're saying. At that point, it just becomes one more thing that you just deal with. Right?

Exactly. And I think, again, that's that idea of the woman with the black eye is everything was great. One day, you were punched, and now it's an abusive relationship. And that's not the I mean, it it sounds silly, but one of the biggest things that I say to women when they say, why did I stay so long? So I say to them, did did he punch you on the first date? And they sort of laugh and they go, well, no. And I said, okay. Like, let's let's think about that. Right? If he had hit you on the first date, would you have continued? I go, of course not. So tell me about your first couple of months together. And the answer always is it was wonderful. Everything was so great. And so chasing that early start is I think what very much keeps women in the relationship because they see it as this person has the potential to be fabulous. I just need to get back to that place. And there's, again, that false sense of control. But, yeah, the hitting I mean, the physical violence in my relationship, you know, probably took about two years to start.

Wow. I mean, that all makes really a sense. Like, it's all a journey and it's a process, and that's just a really, shocking piece of it. The rest of it, the subtle part is almost scarier by the sounds of

it. Absolutely. I think it's it's terrifying. It's confusing. And it's not from a legal perspective something that, you know, the government is looking at adding course of control as a a criminal charge. My concern is how is that ultimately proven, but that's to be determined. But at least it's on the radar of understanding that this is incredibly impactful and not okay, and there has to be consequences for it.

So you mentioned that a lot of people say, well, why didn't I leave, and why didn't I see the signs? You know, a lot of the women I talk to, we often celebrate leadership and courage in business and activism, but it seems like those same qualities apply to those who find the strength to leave the abusive relationship. So what kind of inner strength does it take to make that decision?

Oh, so much strength. And especially when there are children involved, there's financial dependence. It really is changing most aspects of your life, and it takes a lot for a woman to do that. And I hear from so many women is it has to get to a point where they believe they're either in significant danger or often they will leave for their children specifically. As they say, you know, at this point, I don't feel like I really matter, but I will not allow my children to grow up in an environment like this. Having supports is really, really important. Having a safety plan of getting out is really important because we know women are statistically at the greatest risk when they leave a relationship. But it takes an incredible amount of courage. And I think that we as a society need to be very mindful of all the things that keep people in these relationships as opposed to making the assumption that it's easy to leave because it's incredibly challenging.

Well and as the person leaving, you have you're the one who has to start all over while dealing with all of the trauma and issues from the relationship, which I can't imagine being easy. I can think it would be incredibly difficult to do all of those things at the same time.

Incredibly difficult. Yeah. There's so so many pieces, particularly when children are involved that are often the responsibility of the survivor of this that are then trying to make plans for everything and keep things normal for their kids and to figure out finances. And family court is a whole other issue that we could talk about. Any woman who has left an abusive relationship has undoubtedly gone through a lot to be able to accomplish that. But it's doable, and no woman ever says I regret having left.

Oh, I love that. That is so good to hear. Really, that's that's very encouraging, and a positive way to sort of close the loop on that. I do have one more question, though, but you talked about children. I mean, it's not called intimate partner violence, but can children be treated in the same manner then?

Absolutely. And children when children are in the home and there's a violent relationship, children can often take on different roles. We have some children who will step in the middle and potentially are then abused. We have children who try to be overly pleasing because they feel like maybe it's my fault and if I'm a really good kid, this will stop. Regardless, the exposure to violence is always becomes a concern even if the child themselves are not being abused, but that in and of itself is problematic and requires intervention.

So as a leader yourself, both in business, therapy, and as a survivor of intimate partner violence, what advice do you have for the next generation of women leaders?

You know, I think for the best advice I can give really is to believe in yourself. And it's it sounds very cliche, but to take control of what you want to do and fight for it, to believe in yourself and take risks that you're betting on yourself, I think is such a key piece. When I rented my first office space, I was terrified. It felt like such a huge commitment. And I'm a business owner, But I had to balance that. And I have a wonderful husband who also very much believed in me, which was excellent support, but being able to say, I trust myself enough that I will work hard enough to make this come together.

Well, that's great advice, and I think that, you know, the risk you took has definitely paid off. You're a successful entrepreneur. What a great example of that. And and because of that, you're able to help so many more people. So thank you for doing that, and congratulations on everything you've accomplished. I can't wait to see what's next. Yes.

That's that's the that's the plan right now is what is the next thing that I want to do? And I'm an ideas person, and slowly selecting what that next goal is is very important to me. But thank you. I've been I I like to say I'm I'm fortunate in that it's come together, but I I'm also a really hard worker. And so it's it's come together in a lot of really lovely ways, but, yeah, I appreciate that. So thank you for for having me to chat about this today.

Oh, well, thank you. I have enjoyed learning all of the different things and, you know, hearing a little bit more about the business side, which I was very curious about. And, of course, hearing your story, which, I mean, I can't imagine. I know it probably gets easier to say time after time, but it's still not an easy thing sometimes to talk about. And I assume the more people hear about it, the better off people in society will be. Right?

There's a quote that I love is, shame dies in safe spaces. And I love that because it speaks so much to therapy, but there was a lot of shame that I carried around this relationship. And I still have hesitancy, you know, nearly twenty years later of sharing my story and will I be believed. And I was very good at hiding it. But, as somebody who who strives to continue to be a leader in mental health, I think sharing my story can be so valuable to have others say it's okay to share my story and acknowledge that what's happening to me is not okay and to reach out. And that's the role that I really wanna play in sharing my story is saying this does happen, and it's not okay, and it's alright to talk about it.

Voices of Leadership is part of the Bespoke Productions Hub network of independent podcasters. If you are interested in partnering with us as a sponsor or if you have a podcast of your own, please visit bespoke productions hub dot com for more information. This episode is hosted, produced, and edited by me, Amy Schluter.